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	<title>Comments on: Is Fair Also Lovely? (Part 1)</title>
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		<title>By: maria</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-476</link>
		<dc:creator>maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-476</guid>
		<description>Dear Saba Kamran &amp; others,

I&#039;m interested in this discussion because my fiancé is Indian. As a Scandinavian white female I find your comment that &quot;very fair people are rarely beautiful” tantamount to saying “very dark people are rarely beautiful” – it goes against what I think we must try to establish here: to love yourself and respect others. This is important to me personally also because our children will surely have a skin tone darker than the average Scandinavian.

Historically, with short summers and long winters, the people here in the North had to absorb through their skin all the vitamin D they could get from the Sun, hence the “wheatish” skin tone. It’s not any different to the situation in Africa, Asia and other parts of the world where people with a skin tone suitable to the conditions in that area once survived the best. Skin tone acquired a cultural significance much later.

Some (thankfully, few) South Asians we&#039;ve met have referred to me as a &quot;gori&quot; when they talk of me being different and inadequate culturally. This is frustrating considering that I obviously can’t help my skin tone any more than a person with darker complexion. I also resent that views of my personality are imposed on me simply because of the way I look (ie. I must not know how it feels to be discriminated against for my color, so I am an ignorant and proud gori who will never be as “pure” as desi girls.) What I am saying is that skin color can be used against everybody. Please don’t encourage this in any way by glorifying one single hue, be it black, white or brown. 

This problem will not be solved by turning around and saying darker skin is more beautiful than fair skin is. It’s only when we all accept our natural look and begin to love it that skin whitening creams and tanning products alike will become redundant. However, with the cultural factors, the burdens of history and the media imposing their views on us, it is certainly very difficult. This calls for us to fight these effects in our personal lives and in what we tell our friends and future children about the significance of color.

I was actually cleaning our bathroom cupboards today and found some skin whitening creams my fiancé had brought from India, then looked them up on Google. We had a talk and he agreed he doesn’t need those. I am throwing out what’s left of the Fair &amp; Handsome products today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Saba Kamran &amp; others,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m interested in this discussion because my fiancé is Indian. As a Scandinavian white female I find your comment that &#8220;very fair people are rarely beautiful” tantamount to saying “very dark people are rarely beautiful” – it goes against what I think we must try to establish here: to love yourself and respect others. This is important to me personally also because our children will surely have a skin tone darker than the average Scandinavian.</p>
<p>Historically, with short summers and long winters, the people here in the North had to absorb through their skin all the vitamin D they could get from the Sun, hence the “wheatish” skin tone. It’s not any different to the situation in Africa, Asia and other parts of the world where people with a skin tone suitable to the conditions in that area once survived the best. Skin tone acquired a cultural significance much later.</p>
<p>Some (thankfully, few) South Asians we&#8217;ve met have referred to me as a &#8220;gori&#8221; when they talk of me being different and inadequate culturally. This is frustrating considering that I obviously can’t help my skin tone any more than a person with darker complexion. I also resent that views of my personality are imposed on me simply because of the way I look (ie. I must not know how it feels to be discriminated against for my color, so I am an ignorant and proud gori who will never be as “pure” as desi girls.) What I am saying is that skin color can be used against everybody. Please don’t encourage this in any way by glorifying one single hue, be it black, white or brown. </p>
<p>This problem will not be solved by turning around and saying darker skin is more beautiful than fair skin is. It’s only when we all accept our natural look and begin to love it that skin whitening creams and tanning products alike will become redundant. However, with the cultural factors, the burdens of history and the media imposing their views on us, it is certainly very difficult. This calls for us to fight these effects in our personal lives and in what we tell our friends and future children about the significance of color.</p>
<p>I was actually cleaning our bathroom cupboards today and found some skin whitening creams my fiancé had brought from India, then looked them up on Google. We had a talk and he agreed he doesn’t need those. I am throwing out what’s left of the Fair &amp; Handsome products today.</p>
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		<title>By: Saba Kamran</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-452</link>
		<dc:creator>Saba Kamran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-452</guid>
		<description>you&#039;re right, its got more to do with the &quot;Gora sahab&quot; ruling us for so many years. And if you ask me, its actually the opposite.... Very fair people are hardly ever beautiful... Girls fail to realize this that there is so much natural attraction in wheat-ish complexion!

A few days ago I was reading a frustrated person&#039;s blog who is concerned about her weight and how people keep telling her to reduce it. And she wrote a similar blog as yours, except she thought who said Size Zero meant being beautiful... It&#039;s an interesting read and im sure many of you will be able to connect with it.

http://yello.pk/blog/vardabilal/zer0-is-not-a-size/8695</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you&#8217;re right, its got more to do with the &#8220;Gora sahab&#8221; ruling us for so many years. And if you ask me, its actually the opposite&#8230;. Very fair people are hardly ever beautiful&#8230; Girls fail to realize this that there is so much natural attraction in wheat-ish complexion!</p>
<p>A few days ago I was reading a frustrated person&#8217;s blog who is concerned about her weight and how people keep telling her to reduce it. And she wrote a similar blog as yours, except she thought who said Size Zero meant being beautiful&#8230; It&#8217;s an interesting read and im sure many of you will be able to connect with it.</p>
<p><a href="http://yello.pk/blog/vardabilal/zer0-is-not-a-size/8695" rel="nofollow">http://yello.pk/blog/vardabilal/zer0-is-not-a-size/8695</a></p>
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		<title>By: MarinaSK</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-387</link>
		<dc:creator>MarinaSK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-387</guid>
		<description>@ZeroRace

I read your comment with interest but eventually I was taken aback by its simplistic argument. What do you suggest? &quot;Blame it on the forefathers&quot; is a tune that has been played to often and that the present generation has to overcome. 
As far as I understood the article it is not looking at the historical development of how skin colour has come into being (i.e. the biological-chemical process..) but the cultural values that are ascribed to a certain shade, colour, name it what you want, of a person&#039;s outer covering. Of course, due to certain exterior conditions skin colour tends to be lighter or darker BUT the point is, not to infer essential social values from that. Because this thought-process attributes values from outside, constructed by society to a person&#039;s skin.
So, this contemporary ad and its reinforcment of these culturally alledgedly more desirable skin colour highlights the perpetuation of the signification of a certain shade of skin colour that is culturally more valued than another. 
In examining the ad critically its implicit message &quot;fair=more lovely&quot; is questioned and challenged and it is the present generation&#039;s opportunity to do so not the forefather&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ZeroRace</p>
<p>I read your comment with interest but eventually I was taken aback by its simplistic argument. What do you suggest? &#8220;Blame it on the forefathers&#8221; is a tune that has been played to often and that the present generation has to overcome.<br />
As far as I understood the article it is not looking at the historical development of how skin colour has come into being (i.e. the biological-chemical process..) but the cultural values that are ascribed to a certain shade, colour, name it what you want, of a person&#8217;s outer covering. Of course, due to certain exterior conditions skin colour tends to be lighter or darker BUT the point is, not to infer essential social values from that. Because this thought-process attributes values from outside, constructed by society to a person&#8217;s skin.<br />
So, this contemporary ad and its reinforcment of these culturally alledgedly more desirable skin colour highlights the perpetuation of the signification of a certain shade of skin colour that is culturally more valued than another.<br />
In examining the ad critically its implicit message &#8220;fair=more lovely&#8221; is questioned and challenged and it is the present generation&#8217;s opportunity to do so not the forefather&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: NonTeoh</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-384</link>
		<dc:creator>NonTeoh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-384</guid>
		<description>end racism. kill everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>end racism. kill everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: objetpetitm</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-383</link>
		<dc:creator>objetpetitm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-383</guid>
		<description>RE ZeroRace: advice coming from a person whose only point was to poke a finger in somebody&#039;s face...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE ZeroRace: advice coming from a person whose only point was to poke a finger in somebody&#8217;s face&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ZeroRace</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-379</link>
		<dc:creator>ZeroRace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 04:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-379</guid>
		<description>Indians were Never indians they were warrior nomads from central europe . when they were on expedition to find new land to settle down.they settled in india due to inability  of returning back cause they have traveled too far this time .so they decided to settle down in south asian region and due to tropical weather condition their skin started getting tanned and meanwhile for reproduction they mated with native of south asia  and skin colour of natives was tanned black because of excessive melanin to avoid the UV rays from the sun ..so thats how after mating their offspring was mix of white and black with qualities of melanin excretion in their body.but the charm of remaining white always 
(cause aryans were white) never went from their body and mind and these racist charms are not new they are within indians from their first step in south asia.you can still find slightly fair population in north india and this population doing exactly whatever they have in their genes.skull structure of indians and europion is exactly same which Caucasian. so dont blame TV ads dont blame each other blame our fore fathers ..and i guess u cant do that they are dead so shut up ..racism is every where in india ..starting from religion,sub religion,reagion(statehood),cast,creed,GOD...
so why dont you people sit back or fight with terrorist and racist with in you instead of poking finger in somebody&#039;s face</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indians were Never indians they were warrior nomads from central europe . when they were on expedition to find new land to settle down.they settled in india due to inability  of returning back cause they have traveled too far this time .so they decided to settle down in south asian region and due to tropical weather condition their skin started getting tanned and meanwhile for reproduction they mated with native of south asia  and skin colour of natives was tanned black because of excessive melanin to avoid the UV rays from the sun ..so thats how after mating their offspring was mix of white and black with qualities of melanin excretion in their body.but the charm of remaining white always<br />
(cause aryans were white) never went from their body and mind and these racist charms are not new they are within indians from their first step in south asia.you can still find slightly fair population in north india and this population doing exactly whatever they have in their genes.skull structure of indians and europion is exactly same which Caucasian. so dont blame TV ads dont blame each other blame our fore fathers ..and i guess u cant do that they are dead so shut up ..racism is every where in india ..starting from religion,sub religion,reagion(statehood),cast,creed,GOD&#8230;<br />
so why dont you people sit back or fight with terrorist and racist with in you instead of poking finger in somebody&#8217;s face</p>
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		<title>By: FizaUK</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-341</link>
		<dc:creator>FizaUK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-341</guid>
		<description>Part 2 is about menz active :) it&#039;s interesting actually research showed that fair n lovely in pakistan was more commonly bought by men (crickets and soldiers) quite contrary to their selling belief that women would be their main market!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part 2 is about menz active <img src='http://www.projectcarousel.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  it&#8217;s interesting actually research showed that fair n lovely in pakistan was more commonly bought by men (crickets and soldiers) quite contrary to their selling belief that women would be their main market!</p>
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		<title>By: objetpetitm</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-339</link>
		<dc:creator>objetpetitm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 12:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-339</guid>
		<description>Steven Biko said to a judge, when asked, &quot;why do you call yourself Black Power, you are more brown?&quot;  His response: &quot;Why do you call yourself white, you are more pink...&quot;  

Obviously, things are enormously complex here. In rigid class-based societies, being exposed to sun probably was, to a degree, a sign of manual labor.  If you worked outside, you got darker. In colonial societies, it was sometimes a sign of &quot;bad blood&quot; ie a marker of genetics and ties to colonial Europe.  

In parts of sub-sahara Africa - as far as I know - this actually is not that much of an issue because the skin complexity is more uniform and thus skin tone cannot act as a marker of difference. They do, however, straighten their hair as an alternative to this.  What a strange world!

I loved the Menz Active - haven&#039;t seen that before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven Biko said to a judge, when asked, &#8220;why do you call yourself Black Power, you are more brown?&#8221;  His response: &#8220;Why do you call yourself white, you are more pink&#8230;&#8221;  </p>
<p>Obviously, things are enormously complex here. In rigid class-based societies, being exposed to sun probably was, to a degree, a sign of manual labor.  If you worked outside, you got darker. In colonial societies, it was sometimes a sign of &#8220;bad blood&#8221; ie a marker of genetics and ties to colonial Europe.  </p>
<p>In parts of sub-sahara Africa &#8211; as far as I know &#8211; this actually is not that much of an issue because the skin complexity is more uniform and thus skin tone cannot act as a marker of difference. They do, however, straighten their hair as an alternative to this.  What a strange world!</p>
<p>I loved the Menz Active &#8211; haven&#8217;t seen that before.</p>
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		<title>By: FizaUK</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-328</link>
		<dc:creator>FizaUK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-328</guid>
		<description>Thankyou for the comment and that&#039;s actually a very interesting point you bring up and definitely adds food for thought. I think its quite similar in Pakistan or other Middle Eastern traditions too. Ranging from religious figures to folk stories there are both dark and light skinned figures that have been made popular for the their attractiveness. Laila majnun&#039;s laila was not known to be very &quot;beautiful&quot; either.

However, when it comes to popular culture or the prevalent society&#039;s thoughts I do feel that many would not look at a dark boy or girl and connect it to the beauty of folk or religious or cultural traditions. The fact that an ad like this can run in South Asia or Middle East and not stir negative outcry shows how prevalent the feeling is in the region. And even in cases where historically there were color biases, the fact that in today&#039;s world these ads are still running, such products are still selling, colloquial jokes, family&#039;s preferences still exist goes to show how perhaps commodification of people&#039;s weaknesses have helped strengthen the biases instead of eradicating them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thankyou for the comment and that&#8217;s actually a very interesting point you bring up and definitely adds food for thought. I think its quite similar in Pakistan or other Middle Eastern traditions too. Ranging from religious figures to folk stories there are both dark and light skinned figures that have been made popular for the their attractiveness. Laila majnun&#8217;s laila was not known to be very &#8220;beautiful&#8221; either.</p>
<p>However, when it comes to popular culture or the prevalent society&#8217;s thoughts I do feel that many would not look at a dark boy or girl and connect it to the beauty of folk or religious or cultural traditions. The fact that an ad like this can run in South Asia or Middle East and not stir negative outcry shows how prevalent the feeling is in the region. And even in cases where historically there were color biases, the fact that in today&#8217;s world these ads are still running, such products are still selling, colloquial jokes, family&#8217;s preferences still exist goes to show how perhaps commodification of people&#8217;s weaknesses have helped strengthen the biases instead of eradicating them.</p>
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		<title>By: ratnakar</title>
		<link>http://www.projectcarousel.org/2009/10/is-fair-also-lovely-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-327</link>
		<dc:creator>ratnakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 08:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.projectcarousel.org/?p=1720#comment-327</guid>
		<description>there is some ambivalence in the Indian tradition on this. Both Ram and Krishna were dark men. Krishna is even called Shyam [dark]. terms for sweetheart range from Gore [fair boy], gori [fair girl] to sanwariya [brown complexioned boy] to sanwari [brown complexioned girl], both in praise of physical beauty. but yes, on the whole you are not off the marl. i wonder how much of this bias is actually pre-colonial though.
in a book on Sahara [don&#039;t remember the author&#039;s name just now] i read that the bias is quite common in interior Africa as well and unrelated to the dominance of the white race. strangely even the pale races are a victim to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there is some ambivalence in the Indian tradition on this. Both Ram and Krishna were dark men. Krishna is even called Shyam [dark]. terms for sweetheart range from Gore [fair boy], gori [fair girl] to sanwariya [brown complexioned boy] to sanwari [brown complexioned girl], both in praise of physical beauty. but yes, on the whole you are not off the marl. i wonder how much of this bias is actually pre-colonial though.<br />
in a book on Sahara [don't remember the author's name just now] i read that the bias is quite common in interior Africa as well and unrelated to the dominance of the white race. strangely even the pale races are a victim to it.</p>
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